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Success with auto spoiler deployment
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mauriceb



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1051
Location: Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Success with auto spoiler deployment Reply with quote

I'm a very happy camper today. I resolved my last sticky issue with the automatic spoiler deployment in my throttle assembly. It's now working as it should be, that is deploy automatically after landing, retract automatically once you re-apply power like in the case of an aborted landing or just when taxiing back to the gate, and also act as a normal manual speed brake while in flight.

This had caused me a lot of grief because the spoiler potentiometer is never ignored by FS9 in the same way as the throttle pots which are ignored when the autothrottle is on. So, my speed brake was sometimes going crazy & swinging back & forth on its own due I believe to conflicting inputs from FS9 and from the spoiler pot. So I designed a little logic circuit so that the power to the spoiler servo motor is only applied when the spoiler is armed and the plane is on the ground. In addition, a mechanical switch when the spoiler is fully retracted also kills the power to the spoiler servo when fully retracted. This was necessary because the Spoiler ARM offset (0BCC) is a very tricky one. It does not just remain true only when the spoiler is armed as I expected it would, but remains true even after the spoilers deploy.

During the landing approach, the servo has no power and the spoiler handle can be moved freely to the ARM position. Once the wheels are on the ground, I use the 0366 offset (named Squat Switch in the Phidgets software). That offset becomes true when the wheels are on the ground and this, along with the ARM offset triggers an AND gate which turns a relay on and that relay provides power to the servo which then deploys the spoilers. As soon as the power is re-applied, the spoilers retract automatically and the spoiler down switch kills the power to the servo. This may not always be necessary, but I had found that on some occasions, the spoiler would re-deploy on its own and I could not explain why. So, the switch prevents that from ever happening.

Maurice

Spoiler Circuit

R1 may need to be less than 100 ohms depending on supplied voltages.


Last edited by mauriceb on Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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RocketRod



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 293
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to go Maurice! It's builders like you that make things easier for the rest of us.
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Rodney

737NG Pit Builder
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MarkusPilot



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 314
Location: YSSY Sydney - Australia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic Applause well done.

Mark
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S33 56.6 E151 10.8
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maytham



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 171
Location: Bahrain

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IT's great idea. In general it's really easy to assemble all that.

Maytham
A340
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Tomlin



Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1008

PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow I missed this post. Wow. This is really great! Thanks for sharing this info with us!

Eric
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Learjet 45

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warvet



Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1298

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job Maurice.. Smile Thank god Im building an airbus lol Very Happy

Tim
a340
Canada
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Wilhelm Esser



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: Success with auto spoiler deployment Reply with quote

sorry, only one question: is it realy true that the spoiler retract automaticlly (this was never happen on a 737-300 or 400) Surprised




mauriceb wrote:
I'm a very happy camper today. I resolved my last sticky issue with the automatic spoiler deployment in my throttle assembly. It's now working as it should be, that is deploy automatically after landing, retract automatically once you re-apply power like in the case of an aborted landing or just when taxiing back to the gate, and also act as a normal manual speed brake while in flight.

This had caused me a lot of grief because the spoiler potentiometer is never ignored by FS9 in the same way as the throttle pots which are ignored when the autothrottle is on. So, my speed brake was sometimes going crazy & swinging back & forth on its own due I believe to conflicting inputs from FS9 and from the spoiler pot. So I designed a little logic circuit so that the power to the spoiler servo motor is only applied when the spoiler is armed and the plane is on the ground. In addition, a mechanical switch when the spoiler is fully retracted also kills the power to the spoiler servo when fully retracted. This was necessary because the Spoiler ARM offset (0BCC) is a very tricky one. It does not just remain true only when the spoiler is armed as I expected it would, but remains true even after the spoilers deploy.

During the landing approach, the servo has no power and the spoiler handle can be moved freely to the ARM position. Once the wheels are on the ground, I use the 0366 offset (named Squat Switch in the Phidgets software). That offset becomes true when the wheels are on the ground and this, along with the ARM offset triggers an AND gate which turns a relay on and that relay provides power to the servo which then deploys the spoilers. As soon as the power is re-applied, the spoilers retract automatically and the spoiler down switch kills the power to the servo. This may not always be necessary, but I had found that on some occasions, the spoiler would re-deploy on its own and I could not explain why. So, the switch prevents that from ever happening.

Maurice

Spoiler Circuit

R1 may need to be less than 100 ohms depending on supplied voltages.
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mauriceb



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1051
Location: Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Success with auto spoiler deployment Reply with quote

Wilhelm Esser wrote:
sorry, only one question: is it realy true that the spoiler retract automaticlly (this was never happen on a 737-300 or 400) Surprised


Try it for yourseld & see. After landing, if the spoilers have deployed as they should, switch to an external view where you see the spoilers and add power. You will see the spoilers retracting. Don't just look at the spoiler position in the throttle quadrant since they do not seem to retract in that view, only in the external view.

This makes complete sense to me since the pilot may decide to abort the landing and take off again. In that case, you would not want the spoilers on during take off if the pilot 'forgets' to retract them (he is busy enough during an aborted landing). That's how I see it anyway.

Maurice
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Wilhelm Esser



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Success with auto spoiler deployment Reply with quote

Try it for yourseld & see. After landing, if the spoilers have deployed as they should, switch to an external view where you see the spoilers and add power. You will see the spoilers retracting. Don't just look at the spoiler position in the throttle quadrant since they do not seem to retract in that view, only in the external view.

Hi, i was talking about the real aircraft where i have never seen thing like you describe. (737-300 and 400) Confused
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mauriceb



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1051
Location: Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Success with auto spoiler deployment Reply with quote

Wilhelm Esser wrote:
Try it for yourseld & see. After landing, if the spoilers have deployed as they should, switch to an external view where you see the spoilers and add power. You will see the spoilers retracting. Don't just look at the spoiler position in the throttle quadrant since they do not seem to retract in that view, only in the external view.

Hi, i was talking about the real aircraft where i have never seen thing like you describe. (737-300 and 400) Confused


In that case, I have no idea. Perhaps one of the 'real' airline pilots on this forum can comment (Mark? Smile.
Maurice
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RocketRod



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 293
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of my 737 cockpit companion it states;
After touchdown, all spoilers retract automatically if either thust lever is advanced.
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Rodney

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MarkusPilot



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 314
Location: YSSY Sydney - Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
After an RTO or landing, if either thrust lever is advanced, the SPEED BRAKE lever automatically moves to the DOWN detent and all spoiler panels retract.


If you need to abort the landing ( prior to selection of reverse thrust ) thrust lever advancement will stow the speed brake lever.

If you need to abort a descent ( with speedbrakes extended ) ( such as a GPWS / Terrain warning ) advancing the thrust levers will not stow the speedbrakes. You have to manually stow the speedbrakes in the air.


Mark Very Happy
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vidarf



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Narvik, Norway

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. that little "error" has brought down at least one plane. The pilot gave full throttle, but forgot to retract the speedbrake. The result was fatal to many passengers. Sad
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Farrokh



Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Maurice - thanks for working this out - !

one question - could one use the phidgets relay control card (0/4/4) to control power to the servo motor in the way you describe above? I'm guessing you could - Are you using phidgets cards anywhere in the loop?

Thanks!

FC
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747 400
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Michal



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 234
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only select Boeing 727 aircraft had Autospoiler Arm feature. After an aborted landing, advancement of #3 throttle lever will stow the spoilers and move the lever to the down position.

Fantastic job of solving your problem.
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