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Sim737.com - Update!
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DeMuth-Olsen



Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 290
Location: Colorado Springs, CO. USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is has gotten bitter, hasn't it?

Its very disappointing to hear some people say I lost their respect. Its amazing to observe how other certain builders praise you for hard work and show gratitude for years as a result of my efforts of volunteering ideas and "how-to" instructions, and yet, it took one time for someone to jump to conclusion and nail me WHERE IT HURTS-by saying I am not helping. For two years I have done nothing but help all of you out. Now, just because I am trying to make even on the amount of money I put in my sim towords research and development, that makes me a person who takes advantage of others? The conclusion that I'm out to nickel and dime people is like getting dirt thrown in my face.

Its quite a shame, I really feel its best to get out from using the FDS forum for good. I feel like a piece of trash left out on the street just because of some people claiming I am out to empty their wallets. I WORKED DAMN HARD AND SPENT THOUSANDS AND I AM SUPPOSE TO DONATE MOST OF THE IDEAS AND INSTRUCTIONS JUST TO SAVE OTHERS FROM SPENDING TIME AND RESEARCH AND MONEY AT MY EXPENSE?.

I will say that I enjoyed being on the FDS forum but I think its time for me to move on. Oh, and I better close my store or I'll be shunned again for being a typical "I'm out to get your money" schemers. I know how the word spreads guys. WARVET is real good at that. ;0/

For those builders who respected my decisions and opinions, I'm sorry that a selective few are ruining my reputation. Feel free to contact me from my website, I'll never disappear from the community, but I need to remove myself from the FDS forum. Sorry Peter. You've been great and I don't know how you deal with people who just don't understand.

I forgot to mention, I can't change the price for individual sale of my plans because I've already had customers...VERY happy customers, I might say. By making the price $19.00, it would take 5 years to make up the amount of money I put into the project, not to mention it being unethical to satisfied customers.
_________________
Best regards,
Chad C. DeMuth-Olsen
737NG Cockpit Builder/Pilot
www.sim737.com
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tkellogg



Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Satisfied Customer Reply with quote

I am sorry that I didn't see see this post before Chad made the decision to leave the FDS Forum. Granted I am new to the forum, however I have been a businessman and entrepreneur for over tweny years and as such I feel the need to comment. I am also a customer of Chads as I have purchased the plans for the flight controls and will purchase the plans for the EL backlighting. I am very disapointed in the way Chad has been treated on this subject. He has been extremely helpful to me in building my Sim and has saved me thouands in building my simulator. I decided to buy his plans in order to enable me to quickly find sources for parts and the know how to build my controls quickly. Do I feel taken advantage of. Absolutely not. Do I feel satisfied with his product. Absolutely. The detail in his product, the photgraphs as well as video will help me immensely, save me dollars, and time which will enable me to spend more time playing with my toy. It can be argued that he should be willing to share his expertise freely, he has done so in the past. However, you need to be familiar with the product he has produced. This is not merely a brief tutorial as seen in others posted on FDS website, but a more detailed set of plans. I hate to see him attacked for trying to investigate the possibility of earning some money to help him build his simulator. Many people have started hobbies and discovered their expertise could be turned into a source of revenue by starting a business and charging for their services. These businesses are not for just parts or hardware, many involve solutions to problems as well. I would think members of this forum would wish Chad well with his venture, whether they wish to purchase his products or not, rather than chastise him on this forum. I am amazed and very thankful for the amount of free advice and information that is available on this forum, but I am also amazed at the number of business opportunities I see based upon information that is provided for free. For those who wish to continue to do so, thank you. For those who wish to charge I wish you the best. If your product has value and is based upon a reasonable price it will sell. Many people have used this forum to advertise used aircraft parts, I assume with PC's permission. I see this no differently. In the final analysis, if you don't like the product, or think it too expensive, pass on buying it. But to personally attack a quality individual, who has contributed greatly to the flight sim community for trying to produce some revenue to continue his dream, I think is inexcusable. In the event Chad is still lurking, I would like to make a suggestion to him and others involved in this discussion. Many businesses involve customers in the development of their products by sending them free copies of their work, or at substantially discounted prices to get valuable feedback on their products. This has been standard business practice for years. In this way the developer can make improvements to his work, and those pioneers in the field who test the products can receive products at reduced costs for their input. The potential earnings available to those who desire to become an entrepreneur in this field I believe are tremendous as I believe this industry to be in its infancy. For those of you who have helped pioneer this amazing hobby and wish to make a go of it in the business world I wish you the best, and please include me in your mailing lists. If I like you product, I will buy, if not I will pass. I will not however, attack you for trying.
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gcoyle



Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: A different view.. Reply with quote

Like the last poster, I'm also new to the forum. I have however been reading posts here for a year or so and back in August '05 started work on my own cockpit.

In the process, I spent many hours trawling through the web pages of the contributors to the forum, including Chads. The documented experience of other builders helped me enourmously, particularly the posts of Steve Weker, since I am using Signature panels.

As all information is freely given and since each additional builder seems to discover something new and contribute to the community, I felt obliged to document my progress. I've spent many hours photographing and documenting each step (many disasterous) along the way and my intent is to publish a web site like many of you have done. Basically, I feel obliged to give something back so that the next new builder will have maybe one less thing to figure out for themselves.

I've certainly saved many hours and significant dollars through reading what those who came before me have learnt and I appreciate it greatly. A major factor in my decision to invest the many thousands of dollars in this project was the open (and free) nature of the FDS community. I believe it's self perpetuating, each new builder adds to the domain of knowledge and encourages new builders to start their own projects who in turn contribute back.

I don't begrudge Chad his effort to raise some cash through his endevours but I do believe that it would be a sad day if the wider community were to adopt this approach. My response will be merely to ask for removal of my e-mail from his notification list and continue to photograph and document every mis-wired LED and switch so that the next guy doesn't have to go through some of the pain I have!

Greg
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Pochflyboy



Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 50
Location: Colorado Springs, CO USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW there you have it a customer who said it himself. The products are good!!!!
For the "guest" who ever the hell you are, I doubt it matters what respect you have for any builder, because you will not even show your name. The difference between Chad and Mike from Horizon, is that Chad provides a quality product and a reasonable price, Mike has not in a long time (still wondering about his new products though.)
Tim I understand your opinion, and I respect that.
Now my vote is that this conversation should end, because it is turning in a way that NONE of this can help any builder. SO I would like to make peace with everyone out there and put an end to all this!
My final words on the subject... If you feel the product will help you in your sim, buy it. IF you think it is a scam, don't buy it. You have heard the testimonies from a customer of Chad's and you are big boys now, you can decided what to do all by yourself. Smile
_________________
Joe
CRJ Simulator
Colorado Springs, CO
USA
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SWeker



Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 221
Location: Brooklin, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought for awhile before posting, and was still a bit hesitant to get involved. But here goes...

Chad, we haven't met, nor do I believe we've exchanged emails. However, I do feel that I do know you and your 737 project pretty well. When I first started building, your web page provided me with a wealth of knowledge that I know I failed to thank you for. So here's a much overdue....Thanks!

As for your idea to start selling plans, all the power to you. However, I can truly understand and somewhat agree with most of the builders that posted here. Since I started planning my sim over 3 years ago, I was blown away by the strongly bonded community that shared information openly. If it wasn't posted on a web page or in a forum, a simple email to anyone building would yield an answer. To date, those who have charged did so for a tangible item (PM Sw or FDS Hw) but continued to offer information for free!

So today, when I read this post, like others, I realized that our community was becoming more mainstream and the personal touches may be a thing of the past. I can't blame you for wanting to get some return on your hard work, but I think it was a bit of a shock to most folks. I know I fell over when seeing the pricing, but then again, perhaps I'm still thinking that $400 will get me something tangible....like a used pair of yokes.

Anyway, good luck with your venture. Remember, if you feel strongly enough about your product, don't disappear from this forum, stand up and fight for it.

Cheers, Steve
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DAL900



Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 88
Location: 5 miles south KMCO

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was totally neutral on this topic until “Guest” had to make some comments.

First, if you going to talk “smack”, “Guest” use your real name. I believe the reference to Horizon was totally uncalled for; Chad was attempting to make a business venture. I have not seen 1 post stating that his product was inferior or never delivered. And since you don’t have a name”Guest”, no one will really care about “your respect” or lack there of. It’s simple…. if you don’t want it, don’t buy it.

Peter or Norm needs to put an end to this topic and better yet remove it. This topic no longer has any value, it’s had 319 views and everyone knows what has transpired here


DAL900
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warvet



Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1298

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok lets conclude this,
Peter created this forum as a place to vent, discuss and create completely seperate from FDS and its respectable reputation. Now Chad you are being in my opinion abit childish in your response to this situation, leaving FDS forum is absolutely ridiculous because it has nothing to do with this forum in all reality. I think you are very talented and yes alot of builders believe that you have been a tremendous help to them but all I'm saying is we would prefer to maintain a community of builders as friends, collegues and people sharing a similar passion rther than customers. Now Mike Lehkamp and Horizon are a bunch of parasitic knobs that do nothing but feed off of builders I don't believe Chad this is you or your intent and I'm sure the others share in my analysis. To leave the forum is not an answer it is a cop out, instead simply try to realize alot of builders with far more advanced sims than yours are willing to give freely of our advice and help our fellow builders not experience the pains of our mistakes by advising them of the pitfalls. These things should not come at a cost, additionally I believewhat you have to offer does have value and will save select builders alot of grief, but to put yourself up on a pedestal stating you helped everyone and noone cares about you etc etc is Bullshit plain and simple. Alot of us have spend a shitload of $$$ on our projects and that was our choice and with the mistakes, we gained our experience from as well, but you don't see us selling them to recover costs. Chad when you spent as much money as guys like J Price, Matt O, Stef, Matt S , Frans and myself and many others then you can bitch about needing to recover costs. Hell my project is considerably more advanced than yours no to mention a hell of alot more cash but I'm not selling my ideas. All Im saying is give from the heart or not at all and keep this hobby respectable, friendly and a community of wonderfully giving people. I dont want to turn this into a my dicks bigger than yours thing just merely we like you so stay around coninue to share and be a productive member of this community and stop feeling sorry for yourself. Lets just get over it and keep helping each other reach our intended goals in the greatest hobby on earth.
Very Happy

Tim
A340
Canada

"Dont forget to vote for me for President" LMAO


Last edited by warvet on Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Guest






PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is a link to this million dollar sim of yours?
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warvet



Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1298

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest,
First off get a name or get lost second off its far from a million dollars but closer to $70,000 and thats only because the first year of building was making mistakes buying actual airplane parts having to pay shipping, custom taxes up the wazoo etc cause I didn't know any better and I had more money than sim building skill or common sense. Now I have less money and more of the other 2. When i'm ready to display my sim too the public you can view it then, I didnt build it for your approval or to display it as some display item at a sim fashion show I buit it because i'm a pilot I love flying and i wanted an airbus in my house as a hobby and sense of enjoyment. Do you even have a sim or are you just a sim groupie hoping someday to build one and until then your just an armchair expert,maybe you'd like to share your sim pics with us? Now if this doesnt meet with your approval I'm sorry but Im into building a sim not a website. Also I ocassionally send pics to my friends and they have names apparently you dont, guess ya don't meet the criteria.

Tim
A340
Canada
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Guest






PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim,
First I'm not the person who went under guest to talk bad about the other guys plans. I was on a computer at work and cant log in there and you dont tell me what to do. I was truely interested in seeing your sim since you said you put a lot of money into it. I know you didnt build it for my approval, its your sim you do what you want. Your last post shows how quick you are to jump to conclusions and not be able to take a joke.

As far as me being an "arm chair expert", no I dont think so. I have my own sim and I have built 2 experimental aircraft for my personal enjoyment. BTW thats over 70k.

But after reading some of your other posts...well, they speak for themselves. Also, I dont think yours is bigger Shame on you {Hint: Thats a Joke}
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Guest






PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warvet,
I am not the guest that asked you for your site. In order to have a name, one must register, but since you must meet the "critera" of already having a big bucks cockpit, why should a newbie bother to join this forum? Evidently, only well established members of this exclusive club are welcome. I doubt if this is Mr. Cos' purpose for this forum, and I am sure he welcomes all levels of sim builders. Recently, I've watched you self-important experts drive Earl off this forum. All the cruel comments reminded me of a bunch of school bullies picking on the outsider. I'd rather read a post from Earl, then Mr.-Olsen tell us of his great knowledge and sacrifices.
I completely agree with your assement of Mr.-Olsen's childish position, but don't worry, he won't leave this forum. He needs a place to brag about his great accomplishments.
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Guest






PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought this was a forum for people acting like adults that were interested in learning about the wonderful hobby of flight simulation. I see that I was wrong...

Quit acting like spoiled children
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warvet



Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 1298

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tim,
First I'm not the person who went under guest to talk bad about the other guys plans. I was on a computer at work and cant log in there and you dont tell me what to do. I was truely interested in seeing your sim since you said you put a lot of money into it. I know you didnt build it for my approval, its your sim you do what you want. Your last post shows how quick you are to jump to conclusions and not be able to take a joke.

As far as me being an "arm chair expert", no I dont think so. I have my own sim and I have built 2 experimental aircraft for my personal enjoyment. BTW thats over 70k.

But after reading some of your other posts...well, they speak for themselves. Also, I dont think yours is bigger {Hint: Thats a Joke}
Sir, your right I did think that you and the other poster were one in the same and saw no where did what you post appear to be a joke or humerous that was my oversight and I appologize. If I accidently mixed you up with the other individual with the negative BS Im srry. Very impressive resume by the way hats off. And to the other individual with the big mouth blow it out your ass sport.

Tim
A340
Canada


Last edited by warvet on Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mauriceb



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1051
Location: Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone needs a take a breather here. This isn't a life threatening issue that we need to resolve at any cost. We are all pursuing a hobby we love (most of us anyway) and we all have different ideas on how we should proceed. Since we live in a relatively free society, we can all make our own choices as long as we do not harm other individuals.

Having said that, I do find myself agreeing with everyone on this topic, even though the differences in opinions are huge. My personal wish is much like Tim's wish that everyone would freely share their knowledge & experiences with other builders. I personally could never dream of charging someone for any idea I may have or charging them for some knowledge about the bad &/or expensive mistakes I may have made. I believe most people in these type of forums feel the same way and this is probably the reason why this hobby has advanced so much. If I had to pay every time I asked something, I know that I would have quit a long time ago.

Chad on the other hand felt completely justified in charging what many may consider an overly high amount for some specific knowledge which he was willing to divulge to anyone interested. I believe the amount of money is really irrelevant. As the seller, Chad can choose whatever amount he felt was justified and as buyers, anyone can choose to buy or not to buy. Is it wrong for Chad to do that? I don't think so since he is not harming anyone and I'm sure his business practices & customer service will be exemplary. I, like almost everyone else would have preferred a much lower dollar amount or better still a freebie (who wouldn't?). But If I really felt that what he is offering would save me a lot of money & aggravation in the long run, I would certainly have considered paying whatever he is asking.

To conclude, I hope this disagreement isn't setting a precedent in this forum. Let's all agree to disagree at times and let's all agree to continue sharing our knowledge & experiences freely without chastising anyone who chooses a different course. I hope Chad re-considers his opting out of the forum as I'm sure he would still have been willing to help others with specific questions about his project.

I've only been a part of this 'community' for a few short months and I do hope the camaraderie & good humor I have found does not end because of some disagreement about what ultimately is a very trivial disagreement. We should maybe worry about the next coming ice age or the next comet which will wipe out the 'human dinosaurs', but please, let's keep everything in perspective. This IS just a hobby Laughing

Maurice
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tkellogg



Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Well said! Reply with quote

Mauriceb,

Well said!
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